BullionVault
March 23rd, 2007WARNING: This is not a recommendation to buy sell or hold any financial instrument.
PLEASE NOTE: BullionVault is also mentioned heavily on Money: Going Tactical.
UPDATE 2: 28 April 2007: BullionVault Moving Vaulting Operations to Viamat
All BullionVault clients received this email today:
Dear BullionVault user,
There is an important change concerning your gold.
BullionVault is moving to a different professional bullion market
vault operator.
There is no cause for concern. Your gold is perfectly safe and
will remain so. This letter will explain the circumstances to
you.
BRINKS INC.
There have been growing stresses on our relationship with Brinks
Inc, the US-owned vault operator, and it has become clear that
they feel uncomfortable about continuing to vault BullionVault
gold.
Why this might be so I am genuinely unable to say. Their exact
reasoning has not been disclosed to us.
Fortunately, there is an excellent alternative available to us in
ViaMat International, the largest Swiss-owned vault operator, and
one which has a full quota of internationally located
professional bullion vaults.
Swiss ownership suggests an independence from some of the
pressures which Brinks may have found themselves operating under
recently. Also you – our users – have chosen to vault 26 times as
much gold in Switzerland as in the United States, so we believe
this change will be both natural and welcome.
You will continue to have the choice of London, New York or
Zurich storage, and there will be no increase in costs to you. We
will continue to provide storage at less than a third of the
costs of most gold ETFs.
We warmly thank Brinks for looking after your gold and ours so
professionally since we first launched our service.
THE TRANSFER TO VIAMAT
BullionVault has now signed a long-term storage agreement with
ViaMat. We will soon be transferring all BullionVault gold to
ViaMat’s professional vaulting facilities in each location –
London, Zurich and New York.
Your gold will be properly protected during this transfer.
Bullion shipments of this size are not at all unusual for the
companies involved, and they both accept responsibility and carry
appropriate insurance for the process.
For security reasons we are not disclosing exactly when the
transportation of bullion will take place, but it will NOT be in
the next two weeks. It is for this reason I am writing to you
today.
If you chose BullionVault because we vaulted at Brinks, then it
is only proper you should have the opportunity to exit
BullionVault before BullionVault exits Brinks.
If, on the other hand, you are satisfied with our switch to
ViaMat vaults, then you need do nothing.
Your gold will be transported between the vaults at no charge to
you. It will remain in the city of your current choice, be it
London, Zurich or New York.
Nor do you need to worry about buying or selling gold through
BullionVault during this transportation. The BullionVault service
will not be interrupted.
The strength of your legal ownership rights within ViaMat is just
as personal and permanent as it was in Brinks. In fact it is even
more clearly stated. You can read the relevant acknowledgements
of your property rights by ViaMat in our revised Terms and
Conditions (see below).
ABOUT VIAMAT INTERNATIONAL
Swiss-owned ViaMat has been operating for 62 years and is a
direct competitor of Brinks in several markets. It offers a
similar and thoroughly professional bullion-vaulting service in
the locations in which BullionVault previously employed Brinks.
ViaMat trucks perform the same cash-distribution service for the
Swiss banking industry that Brinks trucks perform in the United
States.
In the English-speaking world ViaMat is less well-known than
Brinks, but neither company self-promotes aggressively; vault
operators tend to like a low profile.
Do visit their website to learn more (www.viamat.com).
TERMS AND CONDITIONS
This change in vault operator has necessitated a re-draft of our
Terms and Conditions, previously unchanged since the BullionVault
service was launched.
The new Terms and Conditions are now available to you on our
website. Thanks to ViaMat’s co-operation with us in developing
new controls on bullion withdrawals from the vault, these new
terms further improve your security as a BullionVault user.
Please note that under both sets of Terms and Conditions, you are
free at any time to end our business relationship by selling your
gold and withdrawing your money.
The new Terms and Conditions will apply from 26 May 2007. Please
be sure to read them here:
http://www.bullionvault.com/help/terms_and_conditions.html
FEEDBACK
Please direct any questions about our new storage arrangement or
our Terms and Conditions to me here using this address:
viamat.question at BullionVault.com
FURTHER NEWS
That is the main business of this letter, but I’d also like to
take this opportunity to tell you of some further developments
here at BullionVault.
The last few months have seen major changes for us. In October,
we were joined by Adrian Ash as head of research. I know many of
you are already enjoying reading his analysis of the gold and
broader financial markets daily.
In November we expanded our equity shareholder base, and
benefited by a large cash injection from new investors. We have
been further strengthened by existing investors electing to
convert 99.5% of a convertible bond into new equity in March
2007. Together these have strengthened an already robust company
into one of the most secure financial foundations you are likely
to come across anywhere. The company now has net shareholders
funds – all held in gold and cash – sufficient to run all our
planned expanded operations for more than four years, and without
a single cent of revenue. Given current trends I believe we will
beat this cautious revenue projection!
By most measurements our business has increased by about 50% in
the last 6 months. We are still only 2 years old, but with
monthly sales around $7 million we are now comfortably the
largest in the world at what we do – enabling private buyers of
physical gold to own it directly in a professional vault in a
secure location of their choice.
In January we moved offices. Visitors are welcome by appointment.
We are in West London, at 2 King Street Cloisters, Clifton Walk,
London W6 0GY, UK. You can call us on our new number, +44 (0)208
600 0130.
In February we expanded the team with Italian, French and German-
speaking support staff. The expanded team is in training, prior
to our launch of multi-lingual sites. The BullionVault service is
now almost ready for launch in German and French, while Italian,
Spanish, Japanese, Chinese and Polish versions are all at various
stages of planning and development.
We have an ambitious development plan covering a whole range of
improvements. Of interest to many of you is that bigger gold
buyers will soon be able to allocate ownership of specific whole
bars within BullionVault in their name.
Watch for further news on this and other developments. These are
exciting times in the gold market. Thank you again for choosing
BullionVault, where your gold remains – and will remain – as
physically safe as it could possibly be, anywhere on Earth.
Yours sincerely,
Paul Tustain
Director
www.BullionVault.com
UPDATE 1: 25 April 2007: Correspondence with Paul Tustain, Director of BullionVault
I wrote the following email to Paul Tustain, Director of BullionVault:
Paul,
My readers (and I) are concerned with the possibility that the U.S.
regime could make gold ownership illegal again for Americans.
Since you require fiat money transfers in and out of Bullion Vault to
occur via bank accounts, what would happen to your clients’ holdings in
the event that the U.S. government banned or limited gold ownership again?
Feel free to respond on or off the record. Unless you tell me that it is
ok to publish your response, I will NOT publish it.
Thanks,
Kevin Flaherty
cryptogon.com
Whatever your opinion is on physical posession vs. vaulted metal, I found Paul’s response to be very interesting; especially the part about Bullion Vault clients holding 26X more gold in Zürich than in New York. Wow. I knew I was right about Switzerland (see original post below), but I didn’t know I was THAT right.
Here is Paul’s email:
‘Fiat’ money is a fact of life. Currently there are no currencies based
on gold circulating effectively as money. So bearing in mind that there
are several fiat currencies still living (just 🙂 ) their success rate
/as circulating money/ is actually better than gold.
But they seem to be consistently poor at storing value, which gold does
fairly well. So I’ll continue to use gold to store value and use
whatever other people seem to like when I go shopping.
I believe in a serious crisis smart money will sell the odd chunk of
high integity gold for a bit of the paper stuff – and get full value,
legally, in Switzerland, before redeeming it somewhere useful via bank
wire. My guess is – and history supports me here – that provided I
spend the paper stuff reasonably quickly the depreciation in legally
supported paper money at home has a less onerous price to pay than the
discount I would have to accept selling gold in a country where it’s
either widely unrecognized or illegal.
Before we started BullionVault we received 1400 market research surveys
about a whole host of issues to do with gold. And the surveys said that
opinion on where to store gold was very polarised. People either
desperately wanted gold at home, or desperately wanted it offshore. The
majority of our respondents were US citizens, so the day we started we
actually opened with more gold in the US than in Switzerland, ready for
the flood of domestic storage demand.
But we now have 26 times more gold in Switzerland than in New York!
The data shows that our rich clients from everywhere store in
Switzerland, and only relatively poorer US clients store in USA
(actually a few rich clients store a small slug in USA as well as a big
slug in Switzerland – which looks like a hedge – and that makes sense to
me). The preference for Switzerland has nothing to do with price,
because there is no difference on BullionVault.
So what is the cause, and what is the effect? I think that the answer
is that a ‘gather it in’ or ‘hoarding’ mentality prevents you getting
rich. It so diminishes the investment opportunities you will say “yes”
to that you are doomed to long term under-performance.
I make the point only to suggest a new world view to those who want
physical gold in their pockets to the exclusion of all else. For
myself I think I will do best by storing in a place where I am most
likely to be able to sell legally. I’ll go with the flow and buy stuff
with giant wads of fiat if that’s what people want. There’s no point
getting too proud to buy in the way the seller prefers.
On your other issue many people will fear that the banks will *all*
fail, and they are too frightened of this scenario to use a safety net
apparently predicated on banking. They are betting against the odds.
What is far more likely is that many, not all, banks would fail, and the
few which are remaining will be cautious enough only to permit new
accounts from people who have something of meaningful value – like gold
– to offer them. The banking industry will not disappear (it never has)
it will merely shrink to the size which matches the demand of a reduced
rich class. This is not only rational economics but is the reality of
what happens in financial collapse. No banks is a fantasy (or a
nightmare) which will not happen.
So how do we at BullionVault protect our customers from the failure of
their own bank? We allow them to take possession of their gold in the
location of its storage (if it really gets that bad), *and* (if not) we
allow them to open a new bank account and return their money there. The
circumstances are tightly controlled.
Best
Paul
— End Update —
As all of you know, I used to be a gold bug. I’m not any longer because I don’t have confidence in an asset that is supposed to be a hedge against inflation when that asset is traded in leveraged fiat currencies.
Here are some Cryptogon posts that mention gold:
What Happened to Gold as Global Stock Markets Sold Off?
Gold Gapping Down Along with Global Stock Markets? Sure, Why Not?
The New Zealand Economy is Sinking While Financial Assets Soar
The New Zealand Economy is Sinking While Financial Assets Soar – Comment
So, after reading all of that, you still want to buy gold?
Ok.
If you’re going for physical possession, I would acquire the gold without leaving a paper trail. When I bought gold in the past, I paid cash for it at coin shop. I walked in. I handed over cash. I walked out with American Eagle gold coins. In my opinion, that is the only good way to acquire gold. It was a private, cash transaction between me and the coin dealer. Nobody else knew about it.
If you need to move a large asset pool into gold, or if physical security issues are a concern, consider BullionVault.
I know that many Cryptogon readers are heavily involved with gold, or are going to be soon. Even though I no longer view gold as a viable strategic asset, given the extremely dire circumstances we’re all facing, I wanted to look for a good mechanism for Cryptogon readers who have made the decision to move into gold.
While you legally own certified gold bullion with with BullionVault (secured by Brinks Viamat in your choice of vaults in New York, London or Zürich), you do not physically possess it. This has advantages, and disadvantages that will be apparent to each of you, depending on your beliefs about the future and your individual situation.
I signed up for BullionVault account to check out the service. It looks excellent. This is an efficient, inexpensive and secure way to own gold.
Use this link to BullionVault if you want BullionVault to pay me a commission if you sign up and use the service.
Use this link to BullionVault if you DO NOT want BullionVault to pay me a commission if you sign up and use the service.
Thanks for the reco.Any comments re GoldMoney?
If you don’t have the gold or silver in your possession you have nothing. It is not the prescious metals that are changing in value it is the currencies that mattoids have invented to steal with by offering something of perceived value for something of real value. It takes a certain amount of labor, technology and land to produce an ounce of gold or silver. The value produced thousands of years ago in the form of gold is still serving it’s owner. Don’t worry about ever exchanging them back to dollars {or for that matter any fiat currency} you will always be able to trade gold and silver for something else of value. It does not matter how little value is left in the dollar if you do not have any of them to worry about. Storage of value {wealth} is what you want and gold and silver have been unparalled in serving this function through out recorded history. The interesting thing to me is that there is more gold above ground than silver yet; silver is selling at about 1/50th the price of gold. Historically this ratio has been about 1 to 15.
http://www.goldismoney.info
Ok, so what would you buy that’s portable and will hold its value? I think a post on this would be pretty valuable to gold bugs….
cash for gold is definitely the best way, if you think anyone is going to value physical gold there on the spot… which of course they probably will, and if things deteriorate over the next decade or two enough then it will have been useful, but how much do you really need?
anyway, this gold offer sounds okay but you can bet there’s more and more that aren’t.
@ Robin
Goldmoney also looks good, but I didn’t recommend it because the only option for storage is in London. Viamat is probably a competent vault services provider, but Brinks is the oldest name in the business and the best, as far as I have been able to tell. HINT: If I was going to use BullionVault, I would vault my gold in Zürich. Switzerland has a very long history of holding wealth for people in times of great instability. If personal physical possession isn’t viable for you (and for most people it really isn’t because of security), I can’t think of a more secure location than a Brinks vault in Zürich, Switzerland.
@ messianicdruid and spam lover
Cash for gold was the only way that I bought the stuff in the past. And, as I wrote in the post, that’s how I suggest people deal with it now. However, I know it’s just not doable for many people. That’s why I looked for the best vault based solution I could find for people.
@ Joe
I inadvertently made excellent “investments” in high quality firearms, professional Canon lenses and a Rolex watch that I sold for roughly what I paid for them or much more, years later, and having used them all of that time.
If I had bought those things and never used them, kept them in their original packaging, what would that stuff have been worth!?
If you buy the highest quality equipment, stuff with timeless value, that’s… say it with me, “as good as gold.”
Is buying high quality “stuff” better than gold? I don’t know, but think about this:
“Stuff” doesn’t trade on margin, like gold. You can’t buy 10 Canon 400mm f/2.8 IS L lenses if you only have enough cash for 1 of them. Sure, there might be cases where some criminals manage to buy a bunch of them with credit cards and then skip town, but THEY’RE CRIMINALS. It’s anomalous. The underlying supply and demand pricing isn’t being skewed by leveraged transactions. When a bank does this with gold, it’s called “the invisible hand of the market.”
Gold would be much more believable as a strategic asset IF EVERY futures transaction resulted in physical delivery of metal. If you buy a gold contract, you have to take delivery of the gold. If you sell a gold contract you have to deliver the gold. NO SPECULATION WITH FAKE, FIAT, PONZI SCHEME MONEY ALLOWED. That would end the bullshit. Then I would believe in gold again. Of course, this has no chance of happening.
Regardless of the assets you plan to go with, the main consideration should be about the market environment that will exist when you go to liquidate.
Will anyone be making a market in precious metals, of camera lenses, or candy bars, or sacks of sugar or whatever the hell you decide to go with?
See this comment I wrote on for more on that:
https://cryptogon.com/?p=524#comment-5968
…In a harder crash…
Say someone wanted one of my calves, would I take gold for payment?
No. I’d consider a couple of sheep or a bunch of chickens or some tools, but I wouldn’t have much use for gold.
Kevin
The quality of the information being presented here is excellent. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
I always thought physical posession was the only option but maybe that’s not altogether the best way. Thoughts of all eggs in one basket come to mind. Zurich. Hmm.
Thanks again.
@ Kristen
Diversification, both in terms of assets and locations, should be a prime consideration at all times. The “all your eggs in one basket” axiom is a very serious matter.
Thank you very much for your thoughtful response to my inquiry and all your comments and website.
I’ve racked my brain for a good in which to put fiat cash which will retain it’s value.It has to keep value over time, can’t become obsolete, must retain usefulness.What?Guns, to a point, but what keeps value?lenses, nope.Land, only if it is agricultural and in use.Silver….maybe, if tech continues to be valued..yep, Silver is the stuff.
STORING GOLD DOWN UNDER
Any thoughts on the Perth Mint’s Certificate Program (PMCP) or their Depository Services?
http://www.perthmint.com.au
My main concern about Jim Turk’s GoldMoney is its’ relationship with Barclays Bank – one call from the US Gov.and the gold is on its way. Same with the ETFs.
At first glance, Bullion Vault definitely warrants looking into.
in the near future…everybody will become an overnight expert on gold and silver bullion coins once the overprinted and truly valueless fiat U.S. Dollar drops below the value of the paper it’s printed on.
If it wouldn’t cost me my excellent medical benefits and profit sharing, I’d quit my hospital job today and can my 403B in order to invest the balance of it in gold and silver coin (with about $15,000 left over in ready cash for emergencies)
IMO….the next great economic bubble, and probably the last great bubble of our monetary system is going to be preacious metals.
Just imaging if the same kind of rampant and reckless speculation that made 55 year old coastal shacks in California worth $750,000 pushed gold up over $3000 an ounce…….if you buy and posess your gold NOW…..you might be able to pay-off your mortgage during a depression with a mere handfull of yellow coins.
Gold is forever……
skyline,
Like I said, if I couldn’t take personal physical possession of metal, I don’t know how to improve on a Brinks vault in Zürich. As usual, though, keep the all-eggs-in-one-basket thing in mind. I’d treat Switzerland as just another basket, albeit a very secure one. The Perth thing? I have to claim ignorance on that one. I just don’t know.
Re: Goldmoney and all gold mechanisms that allow gold payments to other users: They might, at some point, get flagged as “money laundering” schemes. Notice how BullionVault doesn’t allow payments to other users? And fiat currency in and out of that thing must be done via bank account. They’re making damn sure to avoid any possible money laundering stigma.
A gold ETF means Exchange Traded Fraud in my book. Enough said.
I’m looking at this Kiwi dollar thing and I’m actually starting to panic. Becky and I don’t have much, but we’re actually gambling quite a bit by holding Kiwi dollars. Shit. I don’t want to play these games, but I might be forced to eat my own dog food and trade this pig whether I think it’s a good idea or not. Holding Kiwi dollars looks pretty damn stupid right here. I hate this.
[…] Department of Homeland Security user (host: unwgsgs5.cbp.dhs.gov, ip: 63.167.255.204) looked at this recent Cryptogon post about BullionVault. Posted in Visits | Trackback | Top Of […]
gold — according to the Gold Antitrust Action Committee, the price of gold is kept artificially low for various reasons, illegally. They work to expose this and, possibly, to fix it. What are your thoughts on this?
digital gold currencies — FWIW, some of these have already been used in fraudulent cross-border high-yield investment programs and have kind of a sketchy reputation as a result.
I’ve used GoldMoney in the past and I actually really like it for some things, I have a client who uses it to pay me occasionally, and it’s a quick way to sell or buy gold. But I would never put massive amounts of money in there.
I would not touch Goldmoney.com with a 10 foot pole. If you look at the user agreement, you have to constantly access your account. If you don’t access your account for 5.5 years, all the possession in the account then belongs to Goldmoney.com. I copied the user agreement below. Stay away from this dog.
If there is no contact from the User to GoldMoney after five and a half (5.5) years from the date a Holding is set to Dormant status, the Holding will be deemed to be abandoned, and will be closed. Any goldgrams, silver ounces or units thereof in the Holding will be forfeited and paid to GoldMoney.
Johnny boy
Homeland Security has nothing to do but make shitty stories up to scare people. You know like, all those “illegal immigrants” now driving school buses?
Seriously, a government employee does get bored, and hey, did you know the U.S. government roasts your wienie in hell for even thinking about looking at websites like cryptogon? So viewers in DHS BEWARE!
And thank you for the buillionvault info. I had just been recommended to gold money. This sounds like the “sound of Music,” (get it, dumb joke I know) soooo much better.
I used to work in the gov’t and I witnessed people sleeping under their desks. That was before the Web existed. Imagnine what gov’t employees must do now?
If DHS wanted seriously to spy on this web site, or any other, they wouldn’t do it from a DHS registered IP, that’s for sure.
Agreed. IP spoofing is far to easy.
[…] I have an interesting update to the Bullion Vault post. […]
I liked Mr. Tustain’s reply, it makes a lot of sense. Having read about the history of money, history really has shown that gold has been tested through times of war, famine, chaos, disease, collapse, etc. and it truly is the eternal money which cuts through the crap and never loses value.
2000 years ago in the Roman Empire, a one-ounce gold coin could buy you a nice toga, with belt and a nice pair of sandals to go with it.
2000 years later, today, the same ounce of gold coin ($685 at time of writing) buys you a nice suit, belt, and shoes to go with it. Amazing isn’t it?
Regardless of what happens in the world, I’d rather have a huge chunk of ‘money’ in the form of physical gold bars stored in Switzerland (whose citizens are heavily armed) than having a wad of fiat monopoly money. As Mr. Tustain said, whenever you need some fiat paper money for your purchasing needs, you can sell off some of it as you please.
I was able to wire some funds from a US account to BullionVault and complete a purchase in Zurich.
1. I had to send my CAP documents (account, utility bill, drivers license copy) to BullionVault, but instead of snail mail, they allow the scanned images to be uploaded directly saving tons of time, hassle and postage.
(collect the documents, scan them to your computer, click upload.)
2. The bank that wired the funds was kind of like a ‘deer in the headlights’ (real or acting?) when dealing with a wire that included a SWIFT number (for international transfers), but BullionVault made it really easy by generating a wire instruction document online that you can fax to them so they can figure out how to do the wire.
3. BullionVault customer service was great when I had questions. Paul Tustain provided great answers to my questions. If US bank fails, you can open a new account in Switzerland and reattach your BullionVault to that one to extract funds. Since Gold does not earn interest or income, you do not need to report any income, just like you can buy a house in Switzerland and only have to report income if you sell it.
4. I emailed Brinks to confirm their relationship and a nice lawyer there said they cannot discuss any relationships with other vendors, but they clearly understood that BullionVault uses their name and the absence of any legal action from them implies very strongly that the relationship is indeed valid.
5. Once I got the funds in BullionVault, it was totally easy to buy gold in Zurich. They have a Wizard button you click to say you want to buy, say 50 grams for around $1100.00, and they generate the order for you, and you just press Submit. Your account is immediately updated on the screen.
So to summarize, here is what you have to do:
1. Create BullionVault Account
2. Upload scanned CAP documents (statement from funding bank, utility bill with address and drivers license scans)
3. Click on Fund your Account link, print out the wire transfer instructions and fax to your customer service rep at your funding bank.
4. Wait a few days and BullionVault will email you when they receive the funds.
5. Click on Order or Wizard to say how many grams you want (1 gram = $22+-, so do the math for more)
6. Pray you never need it, but if you do, Voila.
Believe me, it is alot easier to take your hard earned USD and go buy crap from China at Walmart than doing this, but realize that is no coincidence.
Having gold in Zurich provides an indescribable warm happy feeling. 😉
I too have been impressed by BV. I looked around a little at the other options before opening an account, and BV seemed to have made the utmost effort possible to make the service as secure as possible. Coupled with the fact that Tustain put the GalMarley site together (which is full of very interesting, very useful info on gold owenership), they have struck me both before and after holding an account as excellent, credible, trustworthy people.
Only downside I’ve discovered is the lack of the ability to buy silver. Mostly I think due to VAT implications in the UK (one of the things I liked about them is that they are a UK registered company, subject to UK law, rather than Barbadian law as it is with Goldmoney, if I remember rightly, it’s some tax haven at any rate). Looking into the possibility of e-silver allocated ownership now.
Great blog, too, first visit today.
have 25 one oz. bars of pamp suisse palladium bars. what do you pay per oz.example spot is 390.00 per ounce